S2 responds to Freeslave

Maxjulian said...
I was enjoying the posts with DD as well until we reached point zero. We all need to grow - not just me, men, patriarchs. All of us do. In order to do this kind of work, I have to be around safe people and also teachable people. I need to be around loving, sensitive people.

When I got sober, if people had been coming at me like DD - with a lot of intellectual assertions, without a sensitivity to where I've been, where I'm coming from and what I need - I wouldn't have lasted a day.

Okay, hold on Max. DD not sensitive? Are you reading the posts over at 1tbm? FS, can you please take some time to think, reflect, and think some more b4 commenting more about 1TBM and your exchanges. I like you. You’re smart. When I re-read the conversations, as I’m sure you have – I can see you’ve had a reaction to what she’s said. I know where you are coming from. Your anger and frustration at DD is exactly her point. Her role isn’t to take care of you. That’s what women do. They take care of men. All the time. Come on FS – you know this.

Maxjulian said...Recovery for me was a supportive environment. Most of the people who appealed to my drunk, weren't pushing people to think any particular way. They shared their experience, strength and hope. They encouraged us to use the tools of recovery. But there were no overlords who knew everything, who taught everyone, but who weren't teachable - who appealed to me. That model doesn't work for me, be it man or woman.

You are a smart man. Surely you don’t believe that DD’s comments are hers and hers alone. Like she made Black feminism up. Have I missed something?

Maxjulian said...We typically don't point the finger at folks and indict them as alcoholics. So this process was doomed from the start. What was most disappointing was to open up about myself and have the tenor change to "you are a patriarch, dangerous, etc." It was like this switch: I went from being me, getting butt naked, to being the a choirboy for patriarchy. Everything was you-patriarchy this, you-patriarchy that and I'm like, "I thought I was talking to DD about myself.

Well, what can I say here Julian is: Seminalson? Meet Seminalson.

I know this is hard Julian, but this is exactly why I believe we need each other. Just because we are wounded, and hurt – you know that I am if you’ve read my blog – it doesn’t mean we get away with patriarchal stuff. But, again, this is precisely what I do to DD Max. This is why I see it so well. This is the dangerous part of the work we are doing. We are still patriarchs. >Whether it is said once, 5 times, or a million times, we are patriarchs. Now it is up to us to talk about our emotions, our automatic role in this society as patriarchs and how we can start supporting ourselves and the women around us. And I have a jump-off point, if you’re willing.

Maxjulian said...Little too overthetop cerebral for my little boy's taste. And also, I have issues with the bravado: "you're not going to like me/some people call me a castrator" and then basically trying to live up to those boasts.

Of course you’ve got issue with it, I’ve got issue with what you have in quotes. And that’s because we don’t like hearing those words come out of woman’s mouth. Max, really, the reality for women is that they are second-class citizens in Black community -in the your city and mine, in your state, and in my province; on this continent and world wide. If I were them, I’d be really fucking pissed off too.

This isn’t some theory DD is making up. A long line of women have been doing this work. My mother, a Black feminist herself loves DD. She is 70, a published university scholar and has conversation with DD all the time about these exact same issues. FS, thank god (I’m not religious) you’ve come into my life cause really I am not just talking to you here, I’m talking to myself. You and I need to move past the DD this, and the DD that and start our dialogue. I’m not saying ignore DD. I’m saying that DD is not really the issue. She’s a brilliant person committed to growing and learning. Everyday. I don’t want to fall into a trap where we are communicating like "she said this, and she meant that.." - that’s not useful. If you want clarification on what she’s meant, go to her place and ask her.

Again, let’s start our dialogue.

Maxjulian said...Now, to say that I guess makes me the ultimate patriarch. I felt reduced, in each disagreement, diagnosed, put in a box. And I felt completely unheard by her and I didn't feel a whole lot of heart/emotional stuff coming at me.

I’m a little confused here Julian. The ultimate patriarch? Seems to me, she’s saying we have a lot to work on. And we do. >It’s hard for me to hear, because I pride myself on being super-smart. On being a leader. I can tell you were raised to be entitled to have access a woman’s energy, to be the spotlight. That’s how I was raised.

I was raised Black middle class patriarchal, heterosexual. This means that I was raised with a sense of entitlement to access as much privilege (even as a Black man) as I could. It meant being sent to affluent schools, affluent summer camps, hanging out with affluent white children, going to affluent health clubs, speaking with an accent that sounds Anglo-Canadian, and making noise and complaining if I was denied any access to any of the "privileges" I thought I was "entitled" too. It also meant knowing that I would have access, safe automatic access, to all the Black events, Black women’s spaces where men who were patriarchal would not be welcome; access to sometimes queer events, spoken word nights, and galas – all knowing that my privilege as a middle class, Black, hetero, arrogant, patriarchal – just generally privileged except for my Blackness, would allow me access to nearly everywhere.

And the icing on the cake were having parents who were professionals academics– all markers of significance in Black Community. My father was/is the totally and completely patriarchal – and very, very respected EVEN by feminist. It’s ALMOST LIKE the fact that he could tolerate living in a house with a feminist gives him big points.

But let’s not forget the relationships. My safety pass was also having a Black woman on my arm. Even more points if she was feminist – because I would have the respect of the men (wow! You got that power house! You managed to bring her in line, you must be a real man!) and from the women (for being with a woman with brains) – most important it would mean that people would think that I had politics, and that I knew things and was progressive. But, really at the time, I treated the women as tools for my advancement.

And you know what? The women (straight women) still lusted after me, and who I was. Regardless of what I understood, which wasn’t much. The straight women never really spoke to how I was treating them. They smiled. They may have been angry, but they smiled.

The 2 Black queer women I was seeing at different points back then did however try and speak to me about my actions. They were the only ones who tried to call me on my stuff. They were the only ones who realized that I was doing something wrong.

With them I was extremely dismissive. I ignored their requests to be accountable. I ignored their feelings. I didn’t think they had significant enough value in my quest to "achieve" and "lead", so at the time, I stopped interacting them. Period.

With the straight women, I didn’t think they wouldn’t cause a fuss because had stuff invested in everything in Black community looking a particular way. They hold the community together. The homes, the gatherings, it’s all done by them, or by their mothers. That’s their respect.

So, they said little about my actions and smiled. I didn’t really care. I was arrogant. Anything they might say wouldn’t touch me anyway cause I’m a man. People would just say: well that’s how men are, he’s doing what men do... I didn’t have any problem kicking any of these women to the curb if they weren’t serving my needs.

Basically, if I couldn’t suck from them, gain knowledge, and get "more" they were of no use to me. My needs were paramount and needed to be taken care of.

Well, you used my blog to communicate with DD without really addressing what I said in my original post. I’d love to be mad at you, but I have a bigger issue to deal with. My sanity, building actual friendships that mean something, and being able to look at my children in the face in the next few years. Gotta go pick up Stinkapee again… I’ll write more later...